Education is a critical component of preventing firearm injuries and deaths. On this episode of Policy Outsider, we explore a program in Washington State that delivers to high school students an evidence-informed education on how to reduce firearm injury. The discussion explores what the curriculum covers, its reception in schools, and why it’s so important to get this information to students. That conversation is up next.
Guests
Transcript was generated using AI software and may contain errors.
Joel Tirado 00:01
Welcome to Policy Outsider presented by the Rockefeller Institute of Government. I’m Joel Tirado. Education is a critical component of preventing firearm injuries and deaths. On this episode of Policy Outsider, we explore a program in Washington State that delivers to high school students an evidence informed education on how to reduce firearm injury. Regional Gun Violence Research Consortium Executive Director Jaclyn Schildkraut discusses the curriculum with Gregory Engel, a family physician, epidemiologist, and public health educator, and the Vice President for Education at Ceasefire Northwest, and Greg Schwab, Assistant Superintendent at Edmond School District in Washington. The discussion explores what the curriculum covers, its reception in schools, and why it’s so important to get this information to students. That conversation is up next.
Jaclyn Schildkraut 01:12
Thank you so much for joining us today, Gregory and Greg. We’re excited to have you here.
Gregory Engel 01:17
Thanks for inviting us, Jaclyn.
Greg Schwab 01:19
Yeah. Happy to be here. Thank you.
Jaclyn Schildkraut 01:21
So I wanna kick off our conversation. You two came together from very different perspectives, kind of together on a similar cause. Gregory, what brought you guys together?
Gregory Engel 01:32
Well, Jaclyn, I’ve been working on this project for maybe ten years as a physician epidemiologist, starting teaching in schools and public schools in Western Washington. And by, say, three years ago, we had already reached several thousand students. And it just happened upon Edmond Schools as well. And Greg expressed some interest in actually working together on developing the program that we were developing for that we were giving in schools from health provider perspectives to develop it as a teacher driven module. So that was very exciting for me, because I would like to put myself out of a job, and I think the future of this work is really education that’s given by health teachers.
Jaclyn Schildkraut 02:22
So let’s take a step back for our audience who may not be familiar with this form of education. What specifically does the curriculum seek to teach students, in the classroom?
Gregory Engel 02:33
Well, we start with the facts, the facts on firearm injuries in our in our country. Number one cause of death in youth, fifty thousand deaths a year. But people don’t realize that what they see in the news, the mass shootings, the school shootings, represent a small fraction of the number of people dying in our country from firearms, about one percent or so. They also don’t may not realize the risks versus benefits on firearms. Many people have their images about firearms formed from movies and television and video games. But actually, we don’t teach folks facts in schools, and so there’s a lot to learn. We teach kids the the laws that that that pertain to firearm injuries. We teach them how to recognize somebody who is in crisis and what to do in those situations, all important lessons that can be learned.
Jaclyn Schildkraut 03:26
Greg, from your perspective as an administrator, you know, what was the appeal of this type of education for students in your schools?
Greg Schwab 03:33
Well, it start started first with a need in our district. We had, unfortunately, had some tragedies happen in our district with students that were enrolled in our schools. And while we didn’t have a specific act of violence in any of our schools, we had a lot of community violence that resulted in students being injured or killed. And so there was a need to do something about what was happening for our students. And so that was the initial way that Gregory and I got connected was in providing Gregory provided presentation you know, talked about providing presentations for our students in the classrooms. And it was interesting that once we started doing that, the the the conversation logically just kind of extended to, well, why can’t we do this with our teachers? Why can’t we be teaching this curriculum? Because it really was a valuable curriculum. One of the things that we know about this approach is that it doesn’t it doesn’t tell kids don’t do this. We know adolescent psychology. If you tell kids not to do something, they’re gonna do it. Right? And do it 10 in tenfold. And so we really wanted to come up with a just a different approach, which was let’s educate kids about about how to avoid harm, and what are the things that they should look for, and and what are the signs and risks and warning risk factors and warning signs that students should be looking for in their peers, and and how do they deal with these situations. That I find have found to be over my, you know, career as an educator to be a far more effective way to help change how students think and act rather than simply telling them, don’t do this. You know, they’re gonna they’re gonna go out and do it. So I think that’s really the approach we took is that if we could get into our classrooms and find a way to scale this curriculum up so that all of our students in their health classes are getting access to it, it just made perfect sense that that would be the next logical step.
Jaclyn Schildkraut 05:18
So from both of your perspectives, why health class specifically? Why would that be a good venue to have these conversations?
Gregory Engel 05:26
Well, I I have to admit that I started in health classes because I’m, you know, a health care provider, and that’s my bias. But I actually teach in other classes as well. There’s a small number of other teachers who who I met serendipitously, teacher who teaches language arts, for example, and civics, for example. From my perspective, I just wanna reach as many students as possible, but I think Greg has a different agenda.
Greg Schwab 05:53
Yeah. Well, I think when you look at the Washington State health standards in particular, there’s a really strong threat of harm reduction in in the health standards. And then we started thinking about, well, what are what are those classes where we get access to almost a 100% of our students? And health is really one of those places where we can get access to our students early on in their high school careers. Mostly these are mostly ninth graders that take health, and it’s like, what a what a perfect opportunity to get them just as they’re entering high entering high school to, you know, to get access to this curriculum and and exposure to this information.
Jaclyn Schildkraut 06:28
You know, you guys have touched upon this sort of indirectly, but we know that from recent data from the CDC that youth are one of you know, firearms are one of the leading cause of deaths among youth in our country today. And so, you know, with that in mind, as you’re teaching them these facts and figures about gun violence and how it impacts their demographic, what’s sort of been the feedback that you’ve been hearing?
Gregory Engel 06:51
Well, from students, it’s been very positive. Students are actually interested in this, and we’ve we’ve done actually we’ve just published a paper in the Journal of School Health that shows that students both students who have taken our class and students have not who have not taken our class, this ranks high among their concerns. So it’s on their radar, definitely. And I’ve had several students come back to me after class and say, you know why? Why hadn’t we been taught this stuff before? So there’s actually a thirst among students to hear these messages. And when I teach in rural districts, in communities where firearm ownership is actually quite common, more common than in urban. I have students come to me and say, you know what? I think that this is a fair presentation of what’s going on. I feel like my perspective from coming from a background where firearm firearm ownership is important, my my perspective has been respected.
Greg Schwab 07:54
Well, I think the other thing to think about too is that we are already teaching students so many topics around harm reduction. So we we teach we teach students how to administer Narcan to deal with an over opioid overdose. We teach students how to control bleeding in a mass shooting. I mean, we do. We do. We teach these things. It’s like, why aren’t we teaching harm reduction through awareness about gun violence, and and what are the steps they can take? It just it it just makes perfect sense because, again, as as Gregory pointed out, these are things that kids are exposed to. And so the fact that we’re not talking about it, just doesn’t make any sense anymore.
Jaclyn Schildkraut 08:28
So from both of your perspectives, you know, as somebody who’s also done work in schools around gun violence prevention or harm reduction, obviously in a different capacity, you know, one of the things I picked up on is that there tends to be a hesitancy among the adults to talk to kids about this. Is that something that you found in this project, and how’d you overcome that?
Gregory Engel 08:50
Well, when I started the teaching ten years ago, I assumed that I was gonna be getting all sorts of feedback and sorry, pushback on this. And many people I speak to in who are experts in firearm injury prevention say the same thing. They ask me, you know what? What’s been the response? They expect me to say, you know, I’ve had bad calls at 02:00 in the morning. Actually, we’ve taught 17,000 students by now, and we have never had a single complaint from a parent, a teacher, a student, or an administrator that our program is in any way biased or concerning to them. It’s not pro gun. It’s not anti gun. It really is pro health. It’s designed to be nonpartisan and apolitical, and I think that’s the way it’s been perceived.
Greg Schwab 09:37
You know, I think from the implementation perspective here in our school district, it it hasn’t been without some questions from teachers about what are we doing, or why are we teaching this, and should we be teaching this. But, again, I think once they actually see the curriculum in the way that it’s developed and how it is framed in a larger context of harm reduction and where it fits within the health standards, it it it it fits logically, and I think people people can see that. But, again, I think there’s there’s at least at least with a few of our teachers anyway, there was at least an a little initial hesitancy, to do this because they weren’t really sure that this is something we should be doing. But I think, again, we just continue to press press forward with it, and I think we’ve mostly overcome, you know, those concerns from our from our teachers who who are the ones that are doing it.
Jaclyn Schildkraut 10:19
Greg, thinking about that as well from the implementation standpoint, how have parents reacted to you introducing this curriculum with their students?
Greg Schwab 10:27
It has been absolutely zero. I mean, there’s been no to to Gregory’s point, there’s been no no concern from parents. I think it’s just part of what we it’s part of what we’re teaching now. So
Jaclyn Schildkraut 10:36
so, Gregory, thinking back to the curriculum piece of this, you know, you mentioned that you talk to students about the facts and the figures, you know, how they’re being impacted, but how are you talking to them about the actual concept of harm reduction? How are you what lessons are you teaching there?
Gregory Engel 10:53
Well, I think one thing that we start with is that this is a multifactorial issue. Firearm injury is not just community violence, and it’s not just suicide. It’s also domestic violence. It’s also police violence. It’s multifactorial. So it’s a little bit nerdy to to talk about things like sway to students, but we want to flesh it out and have them appreciate the complexity of firearm injuries. And for every different subset of firearm injuries, there are different solutions. So we talk about knowledge as a way to prevent injuries. So what is the antidote to accidental or unintentional shootings? Well, certainly firearm storage is an important part of that. When we talk about the, you know, solutions for domestic violence, it might be a different perspective. Right? It might be that we just need to we need to increase awareness of those situations as high risk situations. So maybe different different approaches, and we wanna give students the idea that this is a way that public health actually addresses complex issues.
Jaclyn Schildkraut 12:05
So, Greg, you know, thinking about these lessons and and, Gregory, I’ll pose this question to you as well. Have you heard from students or even from parents about making changes at home, implementing safe storage practices, having conversations about firearm safety around the dinner table. Are you hearing any sort of feedback about implementing the lessons that you’re teaching?
Greg Schwab 12:27
You know, from this from my lens, not yet. No. I think it’s we’re still new enough in the in the implementation, but, I mean, I hope those are the conversations that are happening. I hope this is what spurs those conversations and and and that those things are happening at home. I think we know that, you know, kids go home and they talk about what they’re learning in school all the time, and I think that I hope I hope this is one of the conversations that people are having around the dinner table for sure.
Gregory Engel 12:50
Jaclyn, several students have approached me after my presentation and have asked whether they can actually work on this project. They’re interested in firearm injury prevention. And, actually, I do work with high school students, with several students in the community on some research, and it’s it’s a lot of fun for me, and it’s very interesting for them as well. So there’s a real there’s interest out there, and so I think we have some legs here.
Jaclyn Schildkraut 13:17
And speaking of those legs and, you know, kind of continuing to grow this program that you’ve created, you you’ve mentioned to me that you guys are doing a lot of work in Washington State, and, obviously, that’s where you met Greg. Where else have you worked to date, and what are your plans for expansion? For instance, can schools on the East Coast implement this curriculum?
Gregory Engel 13:37
Well, one of the important things that’s that’s that we’re developing, and and Greg’s teachers have been done doing a great job on this, Melissa Boswell and Jenny McLuhan, I wanna call them out for their work on developing an open access resource, which is not at the moment available, but it should happen in the next few months. And that will be a resource that’s gonna be be available to all teachers in the state and indeed around the country. So that’s gonna be a powerful I think this is the first maybe the first example of vetted, what I call a holistic approach to firearm injury prevention, which is not just talking about firearm storage, for example, but is actually going beyond that to address the complexity of the issue. We’ve been working across the border in in Oregon with with folks who are interested in in this curriculum, and hopefully, we’ll be teaching our first class in this fall across the border. And I’ve been approached by by people in other states, including Michigan and Ohio, who are interested also in providing education and fire management prevention to their students.
Jaclyn Schildkraut 14:40
And, Greg, if, you know, if other administrators were thinking about this, you know, and wanted to kind of get your thoughts about the implementation and the pros and cons and benefits, what sort of guidance would you give to other administrators or similar stakeholders who are thinking about firearm safety education in their schools?
Greg Schwab 14:57
Well, I think talk to us. I I we’re happy to help consult and and provide feedback and guidance. I mean, I think we’re we’re proof that you can do it, and and that it can be done in an apolitical, fairly noncontroversial way. I I don’t think it’s been it’s been an issue, at least to date. And and, you know, we’ve educated our school board about this. Our superintendent is on board with this. I mean, everybody knows knows what we’re doing. And, you know, the feedback that I received from my colleagues is like, wow. You guys are this is really you guys are out in front. This is a really good thing that you’re doing. And I I think the more people learn about this and learn what we’ve done, and we’ve and we’ve I mean, we’re we’re happy to share it with whoever wants it. I mean, this isn’t this isn’t proprietary information in any way, shape, or form. It’s like, you want it, I’ll send it to you. Here you go. Here’s the slides. Here’s a script that goes along with it, and we’re happy to consult however you however you’d like if this is something you wanna do. But I think you just need we just need to know that this is a topic that we need to be teaching in schools.
Jaclyn Schildkraut 15:53
Absolutely. You know, we always think about how do we get people and I I think, Gregory, you made this point a little earlier. How do we engage people, and that’s through education and awareness? And it sounds like you guys are really out front and thinking ahead in a very forward way with this topic because, again, so many people are really hesitant about talking about firearm violence in any capacity with youth, and you guys are sort of embracing that and tackling that challenge head on. Are there any final thoughts that you guys can share on this, you know, where you hope that the project goes or what impact you hope that it makes?
Gregory Engel 16:29
Well, one thing that I’ve been having discussions and conversations with people in different walks of life, including educators, but also our public servants, and introducing the idea that education is part of the solution on firearm entry on firearm injuries. Right? We’re living in a country, and let’s put it out there. It’s a highly politicized topic. It’s been it cuts across the country along the the culture wars, and we wanna take it out of that political realm and put it back where it belongs in the health realm. So I would love to hear next time, unfortunately, whether there’s another mass shooting or a school shooting that’s outrageous and shocks the country, I would love to hear our leaders stand up and say, yes. Education is part of the solution. Because actually, I have actually never heard that from a leader.
Greg Schwab 17:27
Yeah. I I think I would echo those comments that that, you know, we we did this, unfortunately, because of of tragic, circumstances that have happened in our district with 14 students over the over the last five years. And so, it you know, it’s it’s just the reality that we’re dealing with. And and and I think we have so often been in a reactive mode of, like, you know, we something happens and we react to it and we you know, people wanna talk about putting police in schools and and increasing security and, you know, all these things that we know, you know, maybe they work, but we don’t really educate kids on this topic. And I think that’s this is this is really the key to preventing this. Prevention is starts with education and making kids aware of, of the dangers of these things and and then how to prevent it. What what can you do? I think that’s the key to this too, is it not only it not only teaches kids about the dangers of it, but it gives them specific skills and strategies that they can do to help prevent it. And I think that’s that’s really where this is different. It’s not just about reacting. It’s about preventing.
Jaclyn Schildkraut 18:30
Absolutely. Proactivity has got to be at the forefront. You know, we look forward to hearing more about this program as it continues to evolve both in Washington and throughout the nation. And we appreciate you guys taking your time today to share this conversation with us and our listeners. Obviously, it’s in itself a point of education, so we appreciate you sharing the important work that you guys have been doing. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Greg Schwab 18:56
Thank you, Jaclyn. It was a pleasure. Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity, Jaclyn.
Joel Tirado 19:04
Thanks again to Gregory Engel, Greg Schwab, and Jaclyn Schildkraut for highlighting this unique program. If you liked this episode, please rate, subscribe, and share. It will help others find the podcast and help us deliver the latest in public policy research. All of our episodes are available for free wherever you stream your podcasts and transcripts are available on our website. I’m Joel Tirado; until next time. Policy Outsider is presented by the Rockefeller Institute of Government, the public policy research arm of the State University of New York. The Institute conducts cutting edge nonpartisan public policy research and analysis to inform lasting solutions to the challenges facing New York state and the nation. Learn more at rockinst.org or by following RockefellerInst. That’s i n s t on social media. Have a question, comment, or idea? Email us at [email protected].
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