We return to Sullivan County, New York, with our Stories from Sullivan researchers to hear directly from a group of people in recovery at Catholic Charities of Orange, Sullivan, and Ulster Counties—people who have lost friends to the epidemic, been to jail, and been brought back from the brink of overdose. They share their pathways to addiction, their struggles to begin recovery, and what kinds of support they would like to see from policymakers.

Rockefeller Institute researchers have been studying the opioid crisis on the ground in rural Sullivan County for more than 18 months, conducting more than 100 interviews with people on the frontlines of the epidemic.

WARNING: This episode contains candid descriptions of addiction and the conditions surrounding addiction, and may be triggering to some people.


Patricia Strach, Director for Policy and Research, Rockefeller Institute of Government

Katie Zuber, Assistant Director for Policy and Research, Rockefeller Institute of Government

Elizabeth Pérez-Chiqués, Visiting Fellow, Rockefeller Institute of Government

Learn More:

Stories from Sullivan


  • Transcript

    Transcript was generated using AI software and may contain errors. 

    Steve 00:00

    I went from owning a couple of houses, cars, two businesses, three businesses to losing every single thing I own and almost my life.

    Female Speaker 1 00:12

    I remember going to the emergency room and them saying, “Here’s a cocktail of drugs. This is going to make you feel better.”

    Eric 00:18

    I made all these promises to my parents that you know, my parents never even smoked a cigarette. So they find out that their son’s an IV drug user and ended up in jail and in treatment, it was mind blowing to them.

    Female Speaker 2 00:30

    It was like the drugs are holding my hand and be that perfect person that I never was.

    Kyle Adams 00:44

    This is Policy Outsider from the Rockefeller Institute of Government. I’m Kyle Adams. Today we’re on the road with Katie Zuber, assistant director for policy and research at the Rockefeller Institute. Along with Patti Strach, director for policy and research, and visiting fellow Elizabeth Pérez-Chiqués, Katie has been researching the opioid epidemic in Sullivan County for more than 18 months. Conducting more than 100 interviews with community members, public officials, medical experts, activists, everyone who touches the frontline of this crisis to get a deeper understanding of the responses to the epidemic here in Sullivan County as well as in communities across the country. On our most recent trip, we met with four people in addiction recovery. We’re bringing you their stories today. They’ll discuss their introduction to drugs and alcohol, and their bouts with addiction, their failures, their successes, what it means to be in recovery, and what advice they want to give to policymakers to help treat those who suffer from addiction. I’ll give a warning here that while not vulgar or graphic, these stories contain candid descriptions of addiction and the conditions that surround addiction, and may be triggering for some people. We publish our research from Sullivan County on a rolling basis under the name Stories from Sullivan. I encourage you to check it out at rockinst.org/stories-from-sullivan. And a quick note before we get into this, on Wednesday, June 26, we’re bringing some community members from Sullivan County to the Rockefeller Institute here in Albany to share their experiences combating this crisis from the ground up. These aren’t elected officials or people necessarily hired to do this kind of thing. They’re just people who stepped up when the community was in trouble. We’ll also have a photo exhibition and a release of findings from the Stories from Sullivan project. It’s going to be an incredible event and I encourage you to attend if you can. You can learn more about it at rockinst.org and now to Sullivan County.

    Kyle Adams 03:13

    We are at an addiction treatment center in Sullivan County where four people are currently gathered around a table telling us their stories. Not everyone is strictly here for opioid addiction, but they are all affected by the epidemic. Hi.

    Steve 03:27

    My name is Steve, I’m an alcoholic. Okay, I noticed this is mostly about opiate, but I’ve lost a lot of friends to the opioid epidemic. Kind of passionate about recovery, the way it is. The way it is here at least is going very well for me. I was an alcoholic for 35 years. But I never used to say that I was an alcoholic because I was functional. You know, I had two businesses, actually three total, always worked for myself. I always thought I was professional, you know, in a sense. But every business that I chose, I chose because it was acceptable to drink in that business. Being a chef, being a contractor, you know doing different things like that. Eventually it catches up and towards the end, I was not functional. Before I came here obviously. But I went from owning a couple of houses, cars, two businesses, three businesses to losing every single thing I own and almost my life. When I got here, I ended up getting arrested for DWI. Believe it or not, prison saved my life. For my first month and a half in jail, I don’t even remember because they induced a coma because they flew me to a regional hospital in the area. I was there for like two weeks. Then the next six weeks, I don’t even remember being in jail. Then I kind of came to, I started realizing what was going on. That’s when my first recovery was starting. That was a year and a half ago.

    Eric 05:17

    My name is Eric, and I’m an addict. I’ve been in and out of jail and institutions for the last 15 years of my life due to my opiate use. This isn’t what I planned for, you know. I was raised in a really good upbringing. Luckily, I was fortunate, you know, I was in the sports and everything. But once I started to get older and realized what drugs can do to somebody, I wanted to explore. I have an older sister, but I mean, she’s never even smoked a joint. I chose to place myself around her friends that did negative things as far as drug use and such. That got the ball rolling until I was starting to get in my late teens, then I was brought around with friends and parties and such. At first, it was just experimenting from anything you can imagine, to strictly to the drugs that made me feel amazing. The one I fell in love with at the time was opiates. At the age of 18, I had accomplished one of my degrees, which I became a certified auto mechanic, ASE certified auto mechanic. I had come back home ready for employment locally. I surrounded myself with bad people again that wound me up in jail for six months at a time. After that, I began this downward spiral after I got out. I made all these promises to my parents. My parents never even smoked a cigarette. So they find out that their son’s an IV drug user and ended up in jail and in treatment, it was mind blowing to them. Obviously, I was the one putting the substance in my body, but it played a major toll on everybody that cared about me. At that time, I went to a 28-day inpatient after I got to jail for six months. Then I did that outpatient treatment for about another six months. That was just about a year just in structured treatment. After that, I remained clean for about five years, working a steady program by going to AA, getting a sponsor, utilizing the program at 100 percent. After that, I started lax on my program. I say, the S on the chest type mentality where I got this, I don’t need this, I don’t need that. I slowly started to slax on the program. From an outsider looking in, it was just like a snowball effect as far as picking up the opiates again. I did crazy things. I stole from my family. I stole from people. I’m a type person that I have the mentality that I’m not going to get caught. But I always end up getting caught and getting arrested, and being on the news and being in the paper. It didn’t play through my head that this was hurting my family that people that have only stuck by me. My dad always said, “Friends come and go, family is forever.” I didn’t put that in perspective at all. I just kept wanting to get high because it made me feel good. I had that five years under my belt and I started my own business, which is auto detailing business. I started to go to school because I was going to major in radiology, I started to get my degree. I found out later that the board I was working for is no longer susceptible because with a felony on your record, you’re pretty limited as far as working in a hospital. That was kind of a blow on my belt. I was upset about that. I was in a toxic relationship where I was told that I was less than whatever you want to say. And that had a, like I said, were slowly the stepping stones to my relapse. Up until most recently now, I did almost a year and a half in a county jail. There’s underlying issues that need to be addressed with me. Why my entire life, do I keep resorting to drugs and alcohol? I need to change my behaviors and my thought process. That’s why I opted to come to the treatment here. It’s been a long road but I’ve made the best of it. I’ve been clean and sober for 19 months now. I think myself, personally, I think I’ve came tenfold.

    Female Speaker 1 09:34

    I was pretty good and only have much of a drug problem till… I started with alcohol, 16 weekends, that sort of thing. I never had a problem. I was amazing childhood. Like I didn’t have any issues there. Didn’t become a problem till I got into college. I’m in my 20s, this is what you’re supposed to do. It was drinking all the time and I didn’t think was a problem for the longest time. Even when I originally started with my opiate addiction, I was working at a catering company on the weekends when I was in college, and I slipped and I fell and I hurt my back. College was on pause, my job was on pause. I remember going to the emergency room and them saying, “Here’s a cocktail of drugs. That’s going to make you feel better.” That’s where it started. It wasn’t anything I was running from or anything like that. It was curiosity really. They got me to try everything I’ve tried. I was a garbage head. Like, Oh, that makes you feel good. Yeah, let’s give it a shot. I’m in my 20s, its okay. That went on for a long time, I think six or nine months. Then finally, I looked in the mirror. I thought at the time was my epiphany like, Oh, you look like crap. I was skinny, circles. I was withdrawing. I’m like, dude, yeah, finish college. What are you doing? I withdrawaled myself and I went back to college. I finished. Still drinking, because in my mind, it’s not drugs. Drinkings all right. Got out of college, started a couple jobs. It was the same thing, drinking every night. It’s okay because it’s not heroin. It’s not anything like that. Eventually, a lot of my friends got fed up with my drinking, saying, you’re going nuts. You’re acting out really crazy when you drink. I think you need to slow down. So I turned back to the opiates. I thought that was a good thing. I was excelling at my job because I was high. I was doing great, but I was functioning. It wasn’t a problem I had. Then when I started shooting heroin, the overdoses scaring my family. I’ve died and got brought back a couple times. I just saw what it was doing to my friends and my family. I had another I thought a little epiphany of you need to stop. I went to rehab, I did it. I got through the 28-day program and this before any my legals and I’m like alright, I can do this. It wasn’t till after rehab and I relapsed again that I realized I wasn’t in rehab the first time around for myself. I was doing it for my friends and my family, because I just saw how much it was killing them. It took me getting arrested with a substantial amount of stuff in my car. Right before I went into drug court, I was like, alright, I need three days so everything is out of my system, so I tried to withdrawal myself three days before that. But even like a week before that I was sick and my arms are inflamed, so bad I couldn’t get a needle in or anything. I had all my stuff in front of me. I had the spoon, the needle, everything and I was just sitting there before even attempted to put it in. I started crying. I got down on my knees. I started begging my mom, my dad, just God, something to help me get through this. How am I going to do this? I didn’t even do it. I was like, it’s time. It’s time and I went through a few days of intense pain and uncomfortableness. But it’s one of those things I pray I never forget. It was an unnecessary evil that had to happen. If I forget how that feels, and that’s more of a chance for me to relapse again. That was like my big aha moment because as long as I’ve been sober since I was young. Enough is enough. Enough running around. Enough trying to figure out how am I going to get money for this? How am I going to go here? How am I going to get this right? What bill can I put off so I can get high? I’m done. It wasn’t worth it in the end. It wasn’t. It was just running from a withdrawal. Realizing that this made my recovery easier to talk to people about it and have people around me that understand what I’m going through. I can do this. It’s awesome.

    Female Speaker 2 14:22

    Good afternoon, everybody. I’m an alcoholic and addict. I guess during my childhood, I had really a structured and militant-style upbringing and tried to do everything in my power. I had a great, wonderful childhood, but it was basically just fun on my parents terms, so I did years and years of dance. I was involved with so many like extracurricular activities, but I was always made to feel like I had to be the best at those things when it was just supposed to be fun. Girl Scouts, things like that. You got to have enough badges. Just really, like cracked me up to be this consistent person, which I’ve only seen inconsistencies in my life growing up between my parents together not together together. It was unbalanced right from the start. As I got older, I met somebody, pretty much chose my father, who emotionally abused me for years, that kind of thing. I didn’t know how to get out. We started doing drugs together. It’s scary that most of us addicts start from a script from the dark. I was on the ski team in high school and I crashed really bad. Prescribed, like she had mentioned, a cocktail full of drugs. When they didn’t prescribe those to me anymore, I felt completely different. I felt I was useless. I wasn’t superhuman anymore, so I couldn’t be the best. I couldn’t excel. It was like the drugs were holding my hand to be that perfect person that I never was. So me and my ex, we continued using each other just to make an excuse to get high. I ended up having three children with him. I had a nervous breakdown, knock down I don’t know how to explain it. But I had something serious happened to my brain where I just up and left. I’ve been living on the street. This whole past year, I was living on the street in the cities of Newburgh, Poughkeepsie, really dangerous violent areas with a lot of things that I dealt with. During that I was by myself. I did horrible things to get money to buy drugs. I stole from people. I turned into some type of monster. But I made it, I made it out there, I survived. I was living in abandoned buildings, in old cars, on the side of the street, underneath the trees when it was raining. I just did everything. I did everything that I could to survive out there. Ate out of dumpsters. Like if you could imagine a homeless man on the street that was being in woman form. And just up until now, I really kick myself too much. I put too much pressure on myself because in a couple of days I’ll be 120 days clean. Basically four months. When I was sitting in crisis, I never thought in a million years that I would reach 90 days. I felt like it was the longest time span in the world. But now I’m sitting here and it’s not a job for me anymore. It comes by second nature to just want to do the right thing and be yourself, get your family back, get your life back. But this time, just have a better life. Because just up until these past couple of weeks, I finally realized who I was. Like, somebody asks you who you are, and you start to run off: I’m a good person, I love to ski, I’m happy. You know, those are character traits. But the real question is, who are you? Who are you as a person? I came up with the first thing that popped into my head was, I’m love. I’m a loving person. I give it. I receive it. The more I do that, the more rewards and benefits and blessings I’ve received so far during this journey in my recovery just from taking it seriously. You could say all you want that you want to get clean and try to do it for other people, but until you get that, I had a moment of clarity, really. And I’m proud of everybody that I know doing the same and I’m proud of myself. Because when you just get to that point where I’m not doing this for my parents anymore. I’m not doing it for my kids. I’m doing it for me, so that I could be that daughter, so that I could be that friend, that mother. So here I am. I’m just living day by day, but being in the moment this time. That’s it.

    Katie Zuber 16:29

    What was it like just trying to find help or to ask for help?

    Steve 19:20

    For me, I was tired honestly, I just couldn’t do it anymore. I was on parole, I had relapsed. That’s how I came out here. In seven days, I went back to drinking almost the same amount as I drank when I quit 450 days earlier. It was out of nowhere. It was just one of those instead of turning right I turned left. Alcohol is everywhere. It was just that neon light and then I just went back to vodka. That’s what I drank towards the end. I was wanting or whatever at the beginning and it wasn’t fast enough. But recovery, I mean, here in this county is the only place, you know. I had been here on outpatient. I’ve never done inpatient where I am right now. I wish I had done this 20 years ago, to actually take this time and look at my life. I’ve never taken the time. Even when I did outpatient, I didn’t do it. I did it for AA, I’m not AA, but probation or anything else. I just did it for other people not for me. If I had done it 20 years ago, maybe my parents would still be talking to me. Maybe my marriage would still be together. Maybe I wouldn’t have lost everything. Like Janis Joplin said of the best, freedom’s just another word, nothing left to lose. I feel free. But all I can do is look forward.

    Katie Zuber 21:13

    What has been particularly helpful or useful for you on this road to recovery and through your recovery?

    Female Speaker 2 21:21

    Being yourself. Being yourself and everybody always wonders what that moment of clarity feels like, but it’s never going to be handed to you. You can’t just wait with your hand out. You got to do the footwork. This is my first rehab ever, just because I reminded myself that I’m a good person. Just because I did bad things doesn’t mean I’m not a good woman. It’s not about getting your life back, worrying about the things that you’ve lost, it’s really just about the gain that you can receive after coming to terms with yourself. I never knew how to do that before in my life. I never knew how to love myself until I started breaking down the things that I’m good at. The creative side of me, the way I speak. I’m smart, you know, and I never said those things. I never got that pat on my back. I was searching for it for so long from everybody else—my family, my ex. It was like codependency to me. Then when you finally realize that you have to just rely on yourself for that and not be affected by everybody else living their own lives. That doesn’t mean that I have to be a miserable person or not find things to, you know, not be included in things, isolating. That just means that what I do is how I do it. What I do is what I am. I don’t want to be the best at it, I want to be the best that I can be doing something. That’s what’s opening my eyes to a lot of things. I don’t have to race. I’m in competition with no one but myself. So, that’s it.

    Eric 23:06

    The biggest thing for me is to have people that care about me. Will try to understand what a disease of addiction is. Like I said, all I have is my family. I mean, I don’t have a significant other. I have no kids. But for me, my parents in their head they thought, that me doing heroin, religiously is like an on-and-off switch. Why can’t you just shut that off and be done? But they started to reach out because back home I’ve lost in the last two years. I’ve lost about 17 people I’ve graduated high school with to the disease of overdose and heroin. My parents actually started to reach out because it’s getting really bad back home to a program called Al-Anon for families with addicted persons. My family is really starting to realize what completely entails with a disease of addiction. They’re starting to understand it more and more. I mean, obviously, they’ve never gone through it themselves, but they know to not enable or cosign my nonsense. But they’re also there to support me when I’m doing the right thing. So that’s helped a lot. I think.

    Female Speaker 1 24:22

    I think your peers too. That’s helped me a lot. There’s a lot of things I can’t go, my parents support me and try to understand, but they’ve never been in my shoes and like the people at Catholic Charities or groups that we go to, it’s just someone else’s perspective that you can put in your wall of recovery or just know that there’s people around you that you’re not alone in this. People have gone through what you have gone through or worse. I haven’t met anyone here that’s not supportive and not like, dude, you can do this or tomorrow’s another day or like just write something, write it down. It’s just everyone gives real good advice here.

    Katie Zuber 25:08

    What is it that you want people to know about your experience specifically or about substance use and alcohol use more generally?

    Eric 25:19

    I feel like you got to want to do it for yourself. A lot of people you know trying to satisfy others but until you fully devote yourself into wanting to get help and to get the treatment for your addiction, I think it’s sadly going to be a roller coaster, in and out of treatments and institutions. I mean like for me, I finally hit my knees and asked for the exception to be lifted off my shoulders because one I didn’t have a spiritual base in my life at all. I mean, once I was old enough to not have to go to church and I have my own car yeah, I’ll meet you there. Never showed up. But you need to have something outside yourself that’s greater than yourself. My sponsor in the program had told me that your spirituality can be a doorknob on a door. It’s something outside yourself. I mean, many people use gardens, animals, everything. It’s something greater than yourself. It doesn’t necessarily have to be God. But in different perspective God is good orderly direction. It can be anything. So unless you’re fully ready to give yourself to the program, to get clean and sober and fix the underlying issues you have, sadly, I don’t know, it’s going to be revolving doors basically.

    Katie Zuber 26:41

    You mentioned the serenity garden and you’re interested in horticulture. What are some of the other things that you do now that you find yourself enjoying either that you used to enjoy before or that you found out about yourself that you really like? What are the things that you’re doing now? Somebody said to us, once you take the drugs and alcohol away, you have to have something to replace that. So what are the kinds of things that you guys are doing now?

    Female Speaker 1 27:03

    So when I first started I called my grandparents, my father, and like, “Do you need anything done around the house?” I was really bored and needed something to occupy my time and this way, they got to see me sober. So I think that was helpful. Doing grass stuff. I moved down attics, just little stuff. Just to keep me busy.

    Katie Zuber 27:26

    So things like around the house?

    Female Speaker 1 27:30

    But there’s only so much you can clean at your own house. You know what I mean? Alright, I need to get out of here. It was like a visit and something to do.

    Eric 27:40

    For me, it’s like returning to my roots. I’m a mechanical savvy type guy. You know, like she was saying, like with family and such, but it’s not necessarily family for me. Social media is huge nowadays. I see on my Facebook page a single mother can’t get to work or go pick up her kid to babysit because she has a broken motor mount on her vehicle. Well, I’m a car guy. I’m a certified auto mechanic. I’ll tell everybody the part and I’ll put the mount on for free, because that makes me feel good. I don’t request money. It’s not all about the money. It’s all about giving back to help another person. It’s like a personal gain for me and it’s a win-win. It makes me feel better and actually helps them out, you know, tenfold. Playing sports and stuff when I was younger, before the addiction even, was part of my life. It’s doing all that kind of stuff. I love the outdoors now. When I was an active juice, you would see me burrowed in my room, like I would never come out. When I came outside is to go meet my dealer. So now I’m always outside. Whether it’s -40 or if its 4000 degrees, I’m outside no matter what. That’s my serenity and helping others.

    Female Speaker 1 28:51

    It’s a good natural high, helping somebody else. I don’t know if that’s selfish or not, but its truth.

    Katie Zuber 28:57

    You see a lot of that with the peer works. One of the reasons why it’s great to have peers because you can lean from each other and help each other. Is there anything in particular, you would want to tell policymakers? People either in Albany or in Washington, DC?

    Female Speaker 1 29:16

    I feel like with having a felony and trying to get jobs. There’s got to be a way around that. Like, I mean, people make mistakes. We’re human. I don’t know.

    Steve 29:31

    When they say, “Oh, this will be off your record in 10 years,” and I see stuff 20 years ago on my record. They’re not even a felony. It was like misdemeanors. I don’t know how to get that off.

    Eric 29:43

    I think they need to work on reintegration programs for people coming home from prison, fresh out of rehabs that have been long term. Some people, although they might have safe housing, their minds not clouded anymore, so they’re still figuring out what they want to do with their life. But there’s really nothing for them to utilize to try to carry on that clear mind. Most people resort to what they’re used to. What they know best. I can’t get a job because I’m a convicted felon, I could sell drugs on the street. That’s what I know. Because there’s nothing to help them transition from being in treatment for a long period of time or being incarcerated for a long period of time, to getting some kind of employment of some sort, whether it’s walking dogs, washing cars, building bridges, who knows. But I think I think the politicians need to work heavily on reintegration programs and more of maintenance programs. You shouldn’t really have to jump through hoops to get on some kind of maintenance program, such as suboxone or methadone. You shouldn’t, I mean, obviously, if somebody’s wanting to get ready to get clean and go into a crisis center, there should be some kind of survey and strict supervision, where they can be able to get on these programs to help them get off the narcotics.

    Steve 31:02

    Yes. Like you were saying, and step down off the suboxone instead of staying on it for years. I mean, that’s just one appointment away from a relapse. You miss your appointment, you’re going to shoot up.

    Eric 31:20

    Because not a lot of people are ready to walk up that ramp to go into crisis, but yet, if they don’t walk up that ramp, they’re either going to end up on a riverbed or they’re just going to finally have that moment where they say they’re done. It’s a two-sided bridge. But with some kind of help from the higher ups or from the government, you can push them towards making their mind up to be done with this because this is getting out of control.

    Steve 31:43

    Well that and education, because the stigma for the heroin addict. You see the skinny kid with a needle in his arm. No, my one buddy was a lawyer and he’s dead from heroin addiction. I mean, lawyers, doctors, these are the people also, you know. They don’t show that. They show the down and out kid. They show a kid and they’re making it look like, oh, it’s just a couple of delinquents. No, it’s your guy that owns a business down the road.

    Eric 32:21

    From a treatment standpoint, it’s also good to have counselors that’ve been down the road before but have maintained. Nobody’s life’s going to be perfect. It never is. As far as my counselor in outpatient, he’s been in the chairs where I’ve been sitting lately. But that’s why I feel like I’m open and honest with him. I’m relatable with him. I think that helps because this is my first treatment. I’ve run into counselors that have strictly just read out of books. I call them bookworms. This is what you’re supposed to do this, this, this, and this. Well, you’ve never experienced it, so how are you going to sit there and tell me what to do when you’ve never experienced that? But when you have a counselor or a lecture that’s run by a counselor that’s actually been in the chairs that we are in, it’s so much easier and relatable. Because you’re like, “Wow, well, for me, I think he’s doing the right thing. If he can do it, I can do it.” It gives me hope. I can talk to them and be completely honest with them. There’s no holds bar that I’m going to think, they’re just going to think of me as an IV drug addict. I think that helps a lot too. There is hope. If your minds made up, but you don’t know what to do, just like I said, social media is huge now. You can reach out anywhere to find a facility. You got to make that conscious decision that your life is repairable, but you got to do this now. Because the way the drugs are on the streets now, everybody’s dying. Even first-time users, they’re trying it and they’re dying. And it’s at a very young age. It’s horrible, because sadly to say, I should have been buried six feet underground years ago. But yeah, I’m here. And I’m going on almost two years sober and I feel amazing, but this is just the beginning still. I want to maintain, clean, sober for the rest of my life. I’ve made the decision to be done with this. But it’s an ongoing process day by day. It’s not, oh, I’m cleaning so now I’m good. It’s definitely a lifelong process. You got to keep that mindset day by day. As we all change, it’ll be good.

    Katie Zuber 34:45

    People say it’s not like when you often left a treatment, you walk up the doors and then you know life is back to normal.

    Steve 34:52

    That’s when everything begins. Everything begins.

    Eric 34:57

    That’s real life. That’s when real life starts.

    Kyle Adams 35:20

    A big thank you to those four for sitting down with us and sharing their stories. I know I speak for Katie and Patti and Lissy when I say that these stories can be hard to hear. Even after hearing so many over the course of almost two years, I still see these researchers get choked up from time to time. A special thanks to Katie for letting me come along and record on this trip. Again, if you can join us on Wednesday, June 26, we will be speaking with people from Sullivan County here at the Rockefeller Institute. We’ll be showing photos from 18 months worth of trips to the county and presenting a release of findings in the form of a book. It’s going to be a really unique and rich and informative event and I encourage you to come if you can. You can find more info about that again at rockinst.org. Thanks for listening.

    Kyle Adams 36:28

    Policy Outsider is presented by the Rockefeller Institute of Government, the public policy research arm of the State University of New York. The Institute conducts cutting edge nonpartisan public policy research and analysis to inform lasting solutions to the challenges facing New York State in the nation. Learn more at rockinst.org or by following at RockefellerInst on social media. Have a question, comment, or idea. Email us at [email protected].

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Policy Outsider” from the Rockefeller Institute of Government takes you outside the halls of power to understand how decisions of law and policy shape our everyday lives.

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